The future of U.S. public schools...

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Sunday, December 14, 2025 23:32
VIEWED: 8340
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SERGEANTX

Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
...I'm sure there are a lot of smart folks out there home schooling their kids. But do they have that level of knowledge in their subjects?...
...I just don't see the average American possessing those skills - you know the people you see every day at work or hear on talk radio; do you think they have those skills?

You seem to be making a common assumption about homeschooling that I haven't seen in reality, that its all about educating your kids yourself. We didn't approach it like that at all. We just looked for whatever resources we needed and found them to be very easy to access. We were fortunate in that we live in a college town, which made tutors and ad hoc educational opportunities more readily available, but I'm not sure our experience was completely dependent on that bit of good fortune.

What we did was probably more properly referred to as 'unschooling'. Our situation was far from ideal. I'm a single father and was working full time. But when my oldest son came to me with his overwhelming frustration with junior high school, it hit home. I hated school and have spent many years trying to get past the bad lessons I learned there. I couldn't bear to see my sons go through the same crap.

So he dropped out. He worked through some homeschooling books in biology and history at home. I supervised and helped him find resources for the things he was interested in. He emailed local teachers and professors, experts on the internet, forming many fruitful relationships he still maintains. When he was fourteen we forged papers saying he was sixteen and signed him up at the local community college for several classes.

My son's experiences weren't always productive or ideal. It was spotty and I'd say there were definitely things he missed out on by avoiding high school - I'm aware of the benefit of a skilled educator. But what he gained was a sense of control over his own education. He gained confidence in his own judgement and an optimism that his interests were worth following. These are lessons and values that I don't see supported in traditional schools where playing the system and satisfying 'requirements' override a students natural desire to learn.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

RUE

Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:06 PM

Quote:
Possibly, but I strongly doubt that these were the guiding factors. I think these private school students were selected on the basis of parents' income, not students' merit.

There is unfortunately a strong correlation between parents income and academic readiness. Early reading, readiness for school, role models, involved parents, the knowledge that college is ultimately available (and expected), go up with income levels.

On the flip side, imagine you are living in, oh, let's say Compton, CA. Probably have a single parent home, no one sitting and reading to you, gangsters as your sole role model for success, chaotic life, and no expectation that anything different will be available to you. Now imagine a classroom where the vast majority are such children.

I don't care how innovative the teaching method, it would take a lot to overcome these handicaps. (Though it does happen, Jaime Escalante for example.)

I agree on some things. One is that with large school systems there are inefficiencies of scale, as well as efficiencies. There are other issues as well. Bush's 'no child left behind' program is underfunded and misguided. There is no concerted effort to study which teaching methods work best and what curriculum to pursue. (Though there is good evidence that bilingual education doesn't work and intensive English immersion is the better path to pursue, that teaching reading by modified phonetics works better than 'whole word' recognition, and that as a country the US is still stupidly debating evolution.)

OTOH, with large scale could come rapid progress in educational techniques and efficient curricula, if there were a concerted (apolitical) effort.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, December 22, 2005 6:59 PM

Quote:
There is unfortunately a strong correlation between parents income and academic readiness. Early reading, readiness for school, role models, involved parents, the knowledge that college is ultimately available (and expected), go up with income levels.

Rue, I'm not sure that this holds up. Just a gut feeling. During the time I was in school, the richest kids were not the best students, and the same was true when I taught. Of course that was spec. ed. I don't know about gifted students. I would imagine there is probably some corruption involved because I would be stunned if rich parents didn't go the extra mile to have their kids be in gifted programs.

Bush has no concept of education at all, I exhibit no surprise. I think his father had a lot of ideas.

But in general, I guess my main point is that it's not up to us to define what's 'good enough.' The Koreans and the Japanese define it, and if we don't match that, then we lose. So I do feel that in order for the best method do evolve, the doors need to be open. Competition needs to happen.

SEVENPERCENT

Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Rue, I'm not sure that this holds up.

Unfortunately, DT, Rue's right; the research that's out there backs it up (which is a sad fact in this country). Check out Kozol's work, and I think Alfie Kohn did some stuff related to this as well.

Quote:
I don't know about gifted students.

Another scary figure; when gifted programs are cut, or AP classes aren't offered, the numbers show that students considered in the gifted range have just as high a dropout level as those with various LD's - 5% to 5.2%. For gifted students, the pull-out programs seem to work best, contrary to the inclusion you generally see for LD. Having no outlets for their skills can have a deep psychological impact on gifted kids and cause them severe socialization problems - That's partly why I am so upset that funding for gifted kids has gone right out the window lately in the US.

Quote:
Bush has no concept of education at all, I exhibit no surprise.

On this we have total agreement. When you put out a mandate (NCLB) that isn't worth the paper it's printed on and then underfund it, you are definitely not the education president.

Quote:
I guess my main point is that it's not up to us to define what's 'good enough.'

'Good enough' should be up to the educators, working with cooperative parents, working with proper funding, if the world was perfect. But it isn't. Each day I go in I ask myself, what can I do to make these kids lives just a little better; what can I do to make sure they have the skills they need to achieve. It's the best I can offer them, really, given the system that I have to work with. I just don't feel privatizing the system is the way to go.

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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, December 22, 2005 11:29 PM

In my thirties, after years of having one piece of crap used car after another, and constantly breaking down on highways, I INVESTED some cash in a new, well made American economy car. Saved me trouble, time, AND money in the long run.
Our government needs to respond similarly to the educational system's needs.

Good investments get good returns. The more smart people a country has, the better, right? (Unless there is a quite different agenda...sheep shouldn't get too smart- it's been said.)

Chrisisall, cynical of why schools choke while military entanglements thrive...

DREAMTROVE

Friday, December 23, 2005 4:41 AM

Gotta disagree a little here. There is no shortage of school funding. Certain places, particular schools, sure, have a shortage of funds, but as an overall bugetary expense, education is a leviathan. I don't think you can use Jonathan Kozol's tales of some horridly discriminatory practices that give certain inner city schools next to nothing as a defense of the system and a reason to throw more money into public education.

If you want to hack and slash so called defense spending, you have my vote, but the problem with education is not that there isn't enough honey, in fact if there were any more the bears might invade. The problem is that what's wrong is the same thing in both places. Both our military and our state education system and while I'm at it, our national healthcare system, waste money like there's no tomorrow. Perhaps this is because the country is being run by evangelical 7th day adventists who litterally believe that there is actually no tomorrow.

Whatever the reason, it's a problem that we already know: Big govt. sucks. It wastes money because as soon as the cash starts flowing, bureaucracies invade to ensure that it never stops flowing, and they siphon off more an more each year. My local shool here spends 3 million a year. About a million of that goes to salararies of the administrative staff. Another million goes to contractors and land deals on this merger thing.

I guess I don't know where I'm going with this. Maybe I'm not going anywhere. I don't think throwing money into a pit makes the pit go away, I think it makes it grow. I completely agree that some schools are getting no funds. This is because there is corruption, which is a natural consequence of big govt. If you don't believe this, check out the former soviet union.

7%,

With all due respect, which is due, because you face this daily, you honestly don't think that if someone offered you equivalent funding, that you an a group of educators you respect couldn't go off and build a better system to compete with the one you are currently in? I worked in special ed for a year and I found the system frustratingly rigid and shortsighted. I recognize it's better some places than others, but I think that it's time to allow alternatives to compete. Maybe they'll suck, but maybe they won't, maybe someone CAN build something better. I'm not saying let's close the public schools. If the funding is per student per year, then there's no reason for anyone to lose money by this.

Also, a side note, we live in a world where Americans must compete with Japan and Korea for jobs. If we do not match the standards they set, then our children have no hope of competing. It is way out of our hands. It's not our place to say 'this is good enough' because if we do, then we damn our children to lose that competition.

Also, since you brought up Kozol, I wanted to say, I posted this a month ago or two and no one saluted it, but I support the idea of pooling state education money, and redistributing it evenly. Admittedly, this is the Howard Dean plan, and to Dr. Dean, kudos, it was a good plan. Bloomberg has already done this for the city of New York, but upstate, large differences still exist, as I posted earier, $15,000 avg. $17,000 for white schools, $10,000 for black schools. I've seen private schools that can do it on $10,000, but it's a disgrace to have white and black schools differently funded. Right now the limit for govt. funding of private schools is $1,500

Finally, as a counter to anyone who says "we can't give govt. $ to a private institution for services" we are already doing it to an enormous degree, not just in the healthcare sector, but in the education sector with higher education. This is no different. I think if it were done, it should be done fairly, all schools, equal footing, and equal demands of results, ie. results based on results. For special ed. the results would be in improvement, or proof that institutions were trying and doing their best. Govt. watchdogs should be able to cut off bad schools, I would agree, but also, the

JAYNEZTOWN

Sunday, December 14, 2025 9:57 PM

Linda McMahon’s School Visit, Sponsored by Conservatives, Draws Protest
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/05/nyregion/linda-mcmahon-history-rock
s-school-tour.html

THG

Sunday, December 14, 2025 10:42 PM

I love how school boards are full of conservatives who cry about the way schools are run. If it's broken, you broke it.

T

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, December 14, 2025 11:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by THG:
I love how school boards are full of conservatives who cry about the way schools are run.

No proof of that cited. Go figure.

Quote:
If it's broken, you broke it.

No. YOU broke it with the Department of "Education".

We've never been dumber as a nation and you're to blame for that.

You are also a huge victim of that too, and a living, breathing example that this has been going on a lot longer than just the last 20 years.

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Be Nice. Don't be a dick.

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