The Torture Question
POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Sunday, October 30, 2005 21:30
VIEWED: 10585
PAGE 1 of 16
For those who have not seen PBS Frontline's "The Torture Question," the show is now available to watch online.
It is a must-see.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/
Can't Take My Gorram Sky 
The government is a body of men, usually notably ungoverned.
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Thanks for the link. I meant to watch this, but, now I can.
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It was so dispiriting to see this now. All this information has been available for years and Rummy is still running his "war on terror." It was all there--Rummy's pissing contest with the CIA and the FBI, the think tank lawyers, the 90% of prisoners taken "at random," the broom handle, etc.
One piece of info that was new to me was the utterly appalling fact that Abu Ghraib is located in a combat zone! That fact alone creates unbelievably hostile and dangerous conditions for the detainees. The 19 and 20 year old guards are watching their friends and fellow soldiers killed and maimed by enemy fire during the day and then they're given absolute power over these "enemy combatants" behind closed doors at night. The decision to hold these people under such conditions is a recipe for horrendous abuse from the get go. Am I to believe that the top brass didn't consider that fact? Creating a situation where spontaneous sadism is a given is the perfect cover if you want plausible deniability, idnit?
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Yep. This situation was deliberate on so many levels.
What disturbs me, though, more than issues revealed in this documentary, are some of the letters Frontline has received. For example:
Quote:
Dear FRONTLINE,
This show, this despicable show, you treasonous cowards, I am appalled how you put our soldiers at risk and enlighten the enemy!
I am so sickened by watching this show, this disgrace, this true treasonous act! You should be ashamed for selectively picking cowards who would rather see this great country be degraded for the sake of ratings, liberal base, than the protectors of this great country, how dare you, you should be ashamed.
Thank god for tough action, strong will and a dogged determination to see through your devise, destructive, and dangerous airing of this terrible betrayal of the men and woman who are protecting everything you have and everything you ever will have, I'm sick!
Wayne Woran
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/talk/index7.html
What does it say about us as a nation that we have folks who not only support state-authorized torture, but also want to keep it secret.
Then there were all those people who say, "That's not torture!" I'm not sure if they just didn't watch the program or if they simply blocked out the part where "Detainee 07" was sodomized or where someone was kept in continuous hypothermia at the verge of death.
This blind "patriotism" baffles, and scares, me. What have we become, and where are we headed, as a country?
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Firstly, thanks for the link CantTakeSky, I plan on watching those episodes as I get the time.
Quote:
Originally posted by CantTakeSky:
What does it say about us as a nation that we have folks who not only support state-authorized torture, but also want to keep it secret.
It says America is full of people...
I'll clarify later...
Quote:
Then there were all those people who say, "That's not torture!" I'm not sure if they just didn't watch the program or if they simply blocked out the part where "Detainee 07" was sodomized or where someone was kept in continuous hypothermia at the verge of death.
Cognitive Dissonance?
Quote:
This blind "patriotism" baffles, and scares, me. What have we become, and where are we headed, as a country?
It's always the same. It's a big reason I worry about you guys, with GWB and the patriot act and so on.
You start passing patriot acts and your on a slippery slope, because anyone who dissagrees with it is NOT a patriot and IS a traitor.
Blind patriotism is always a problem, and the blind patriots are ussually blissfully ignorant of the fact that such attitudes are exactly what allowed Hitler and the Nazis to take control of Germany (afterall, it could never happen here, could it?).
The whole 'climate of fear' both here in Britian and in America is incredibly disturbing for me. People will give up all kinds of freedoms and will do and allow all kinds of terrible things to happen in order to feel safe.
For the Nazis it was Jews, today could it be Muslims, and the ever present threat of a 'pandemic' flu? I mean last year it was SARS, this year it's bird flu, what's brewing for next year, lizard flu? Terminal flatulants?
It is articles such as this that give me cause to worry about 'the leader of the free world':
Quote:
Bush may turn out to be a transition figure, our version of Otto von Bismarck. Bismarck used "values" to energize his base at the end of the 19th century and launched "Kulturkampt," the word from which we get "culture wars," against Catholics and Jews. Bismarck 's attacks split the country, made the discrediting of whole segments of the society an acceptable part of the civil discourse and paved the way for the more virulent racism of the Nazis. This, I suspect, will be George Bush's contribution to our democracy.
...
The Institutes of Biblical Law called for a Christian society that was harsh, unforgiving and violent. Offenses such as adultery, witchcraft, blasphemy and homosexuality, merited the death penalty. The world was to be subdued and ruled by a Christian United States. Rushdooney [Rousas Rushdooney, Founder, The Reconstructionist movement] dismissed the number of 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust as an inflated figure and his theories on race echoed Nazi Eugenics.
"The white man has behind him centuries of Christian culture and the discipline and selective breeding this faith requires...," he wrote. "The Negro is a product of a radically different past, and his heredity has been governed by radically different considerations."
"The background of Negro culture is African and magic, and the purposes of the magic are control and power over God, man, nature, and society. Voodoo, or magic, was the religion and life of American Negroes. Voodoo songs underlie jazz, and old voodoo, with its power goal, has been merely replaced with revolutionary voodoo, a modernized power drive." (see The Religious Right , a publication of the ADL, pg. 124.)
http://www.theocracywatch.org/chris_hedges_nov24_04.htm
EDIT:
It interests me that many say 'Muslim states' are violent and 'backward' because of their justice system.
Just take a look at the justice that Rousas Rushdooney wants for the global 'United Christian Empire'.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Even though I might, even though I try,
I can't
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Quote:Not according to the present administration.
Originally posted by citizen:
Blind patriotism is always a problem
Heil Bush! Chrisisall
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Quote:Second only to the Golden Rule, politically speaking.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
plausible deniability
Chrisisall, CT to the end
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chrisisall:
Heil Bush! Chrisisall
I think it's a little harsh to compare Bush with Hitler, I mean, do you think Bush could inspire the masses through a speech...
Hitler could warp an entire nation largely through words...
Bush would be a stand-up-comic, assuming he'd actually meant to be that funny...
Afterall, there's no word in the English language for 'Dictator'...
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
Even though I might, even though I try,
I can't
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Quote:No, but there is a phrase- Old Money.
Originally posted by citizen:
Afterall, there's no word in the English language for 'Dictator'...
"Right from downtown Washington, welcome the comedy stylings of Georgie Bush!"
*applause*
"Thanks for that welcome, you know I could have you all seized into custody using the Patriot Act, and you'd never be heard from again..."
*laughter, applause*
Chrisisall
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I’ve not seen the show so I can’t commit on it, but I can certainly understand and even agree with the necessity of keeping certain things secret. “Torture” is one of those things that should be dealt with very carefully, especially during wartime. I don’t agree with the use of torture, and I certainly think that if our military or defense agencies are wantonly practicing such things then that is legitimate news. On the other hand I do find it despicable that the issue of torture in the news seems to be more often a political tool to attack an administration for reasons that have nothing to do with torture. Since this is likely to inflame threats against our military men, citizens and US supporters abroad as well as raise the overall threat against the US, it is not only despicable but may be ethically tantamount to negligent homicide.
Furthermore the issue of torture is very subjective. What some seem to consider torture, I do not. For instance, I don’t consider sleep deprivation and aggressive, loud and/or threatening speech torture. I don’t consider defacing or destruction of religious items, to include the Koran, in front of prisoners, torture. Nor do I think that such things are newsworthy. However, the unnecessary discussion, even innocently, on the news can inflame threats against our people. We are fighting an enemy that is very fanatical and driven to fits of inhuman psychopathic and/or suicidal fanaticism that will be inflamed by even the notion that the US defaces a Koran. Innocent people, including Americans, may die as a result of simply discussing so called torture in the news.
The issue of torture is one that must be dealt with very responsibly. And while many in the news frequently attack the administration politically or demand the administration take responsibly for a particular interpretation or dubious and/or spurious claims of torture, the news itself does not seem willing to take responsibility for its own part, which could possibly have far worse ramifications if inappropriate or unworthy news is used as propaganda to further or even escalate war against the US.
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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