The last spoken line in the Star Wars saga ...
POSTED BY: STEVEthePIRATE
UPDATED: Friday, May 27, 2005 07:52
VIEWED: 8341
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Nothing wrong with JarJar and I completely agree with Gwek about looking at the films differently. RotJ was really pap. Ep.3 is so much better than Ep.6 when being objective!
When did Vader become so mean, I always thought the darkside was cool until this film, somehow killing half a dozen children and the whole Jedi council is so much worse than destroying planets...
I saw Ep.3 last night and felt like my life had come to an end - I think I need help I felt the same at the end of Buffy, Angel, Babylon 5..... God I am a tragic nerd!
extremely dimensionally transcendental
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Quote:
Originally posted by Emma:
Nothing wrong with JarJar
Love ya babe! Oh hang on, we don't do that here...
Quote:
I saw Ep.3 last night and felt like my life had come to an end - I think I need help I felt the same at the end of Buffy, Angel, Babylon 5..... God I am a tragic nerd!
extremely dimensionally transcendental
No, I quite agree! I felt quite sad when the opening credits came up as I thought this will be the last time I do this...and just had a kind of empty feeling at the end. Not because I didn't enjoy the film, just because it was all over.
Don't forget, this wasn't Anakin's first massacre - killed all those helpless women & children (OK, they were Sandpeople) in Ep II. So he was already quite adept at slaughter.
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GWEK wrote:
Quote:
You know, I'm getting pretty sick of people having episodes I-III just because they're not IV-VI. Sure, the plots are cartoonish and scattered, the dialogue is stilted, and the acting is weak, but the same all holds true for the original trilogy!
The prequel trilogy's biggest crime is that most of us are viewing it as adults rather than children.
Attacking Lucas's decision to give Threepio the last word is ludicrous, given that the character a) have the first line in Episode IV, and b) has served as sort of a detached observer for the entire trilogy.
Personally, I would have been disappointed if Lucas had given the last spoken line to anyone else!
Grow up, guys! Or, rather, grow down. The prequel trilogy can be just as much fun as the original one, but only if you let it!
Alrighty then... I looked up your profile, but you've left me no hints. So, I'm going to presume that I'm speaking to a contemporary: middle-aged man, married and a father; even though I'm actually getting more of a 'early-to-mid twenties female' vibe from your choice of words. Still, I have to have some kind of basis for responding and since you've given me no clues on how to treat you, I'm going to treat you like a man (baby!).
I did not view Episodes 3-6 as a child. I saw the first at the age of 19; do the math for the subsequent two films. I will categorically state that the sensation of watching a story unfold was present throughout the original trilogy, in a way it never was -- not even briefly -- in the new trilogy. The entirety of the New Trilogy (henceforth referred to as 'NT) is an object lesson in poor-form storytelling.
To be fair, Ep. III did have rare dramatic moments in which I almost slipped into the story (supposedly) being told. That was certainly never true of the first two installments of this rape of the corpse of the Original Trilogy (henceforth referred to as 'OT').
But, as soon as I felt that familiar (for the appreciator of storytelling) feeling that I was about to be transported into another world, something would come along to send the balloon crashing fierily to earth. To the further credit of Rot$, this dramatic gag reflex was rarely triggered by a saber fight or action sequence. Rather, the thing that most frequently caused a re-substantiation of disbelief -- and ruination of the fantasy -- was the story itself.
As only one of many examples:
In the OT's "The Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi", Luke struggles mightily -- physically, spiritually and mentally -- against the realization that Vader is his father and subsequently against the lure of the Dark Side of the Force. Mark Hamill -- nobody's idea of a strong thespian -- delivers this internal struggle very effectively and believably, in large part because the dramatic premise is logically sound.
In the NT's Attack of the Clone$ and Rot$, Hayden Christensen (who may arguably be a superior actor to Hamill) cannot reproduce this staple dramatic effect of internal struggle. A major portion of the blame for this fault in storytelling must be laid at Luca$' feet. The circumstances of the story do not follow logically. There is not enough justification for a loving boy, saved from slavery and raised by a beneficent, tolerant order of monks ...given the love and counsel of his ideal female... to turn into a child-murdering monster. His submission to Palpatine/Imperious is a logical disconnect that cannot be overcome. The story crashes and burns.
IMO, Vader should have been portrayed as a middle-aged contemporary of Kenobi or Jin, who falls from grace out of boredom with defending the less fortunate (world-weary/jaded) and who takes Amidala as a war prize after his fall to the Dark Side. She becomes pregnant after having been raped by him, escapes his clutches, and secrets herself and his misbegotten children on opposite ends of the galaxy. He finds her, but she refuses to divulge the hiding places of his offspring; he strangles her.
I feel Lucas'
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I think it's interesting that my demographics (which I will not reveal, because they're not relevant) should have anything to do with your response, zoid. The only relevant point is that I was a kid when I saw the first trilogy and not a kid when I saw the second (which was implied by my post).
A lot of people criticize the storytelling in the prequel trilogy, and, yes, it's scattered, but it's also not supposed to be part of a complete story. It's the first three chapters of a six chapter arc. Watch the first half of a movie and it's always less cohesive than the whole thing (or even the second half on it's own) will be. I also think people tend to forget how haphazard and slapdash a lot of the original trilogy was.
For the record, I think that Hayden Christiansen does a terrible job as Anakin. But I also think that Mark Hamill does an equally terrible job as Luke. But terrible acting doesn't stop me from loving the series. I don't think Hamill struggled any more "mightily" or believably than did Christiansen (although I will admit that with Hamill, unlike Christiansen, bad acting does not seem contagious).
I don't think that Lucas necessarily wanted to make Anakin SYMPATHETIC so much as he wanted to show how a good guy can go bad, since, based on what we learn of Vader in Episodes IV-VI, that's what clearly happened. While you may have thought the story would have been better if Lucas used an older Jedi, THAT'S NOT THE STORY LUCAS WAS TELLING (for that, I suggest you read the Star Wars: Republic comic, which does an excellent job of telling pretty much exactly that tale with Quinlan Vos).
If you go back to the older drafts of Star Wars, you can see that foundation of the new trilogy, especially Phantom Menace, already laid out. In many respects, Episode I is much closer to the movie that Lucas wanted to make in 1977 (but with Wookies, not Gungan), but the special effects and budget were not workable.
PS: I find it annoying bordering on offensive when people use the term "rape" with respect to the new movies. Get over it. "Oh, boo hoo, the poor memories of my youth." If Episode I offended you so much, you shouldn't have come back for two more helpings.
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GWEK:
You are who you are, regardless whether you hide it or reveal it. You have won your anonymity, for what it's worth.
I was not a kid when I saw the OT. I was predisposed and further educated to appreciate proper storytelling.
If I say 'rape of the rainforest' or 'rape of the world's oceans', do you find that "annoying bordering on offensive"? That's what I meant: a rape of the fantasy landscape. Do try not to be so politically correct/sensitive.
It's a nine chapter story arc. We just won't see the last three chapters, because Luca$ has said he won't make them. I don't know how to feel about that...
Luca$ went out of his way to make Anakin sympathetic. That's why his fall doesn't make sense of any kind.
I'm not a large enough fanboy to seek out obscure original scripts, with content that didn't make it to publication in the films. I am/was (since it's over) a large enough fanboy to keep hoping for a redemption of the series. It just never happened.
See ya' at the Serenity premiere. Take notes and we'll argue the dramatic/artistic merits of that film, too.
v/r,
-zed
P.S.
Roller coaster rides don't have characters or plots either, and they're still fun. Rot$ was a roller coaster ride.
But if you diss the OT by putting them on par with these last three, you'll get an argument from me. "Boo-hoo, the last three installments of Star Wars suck. ...So I'll make it sound like the first three were just as bad, so I can feel better about my lack of sophistication and standards in art." Sour grapes (reference from another well-told story).
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Prediction (You heard it here first folks ;) ) :
Episode 7 in 2011 =) The money grubbing studios will somehow someway get one of those book writers to write a script for 3 more movies here in the next 10 years. Evn if it is over Lucas's dead body ;)
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Zoid, as a storyteller, I've got to disagree with your disdain for Lucas making Anakin sympathetic. I challenge you to find a single good story in which the main character is not sympathetic in some way. Even when they're evil, they must be evil for a reason. A villain who is bad because he was born that way is for Saturday morning cartoons and crappy, easily-forgotten Jerry Bruckheimer flicks.
The only villain I can think of that I like, despite the fact that his evil behavior is simply inherent is Aku from Samurai Jack, and he's just funny. Main characters and villains must have motivation or nobody will give a crap about what happens to them.
Even the Emperor had a motivation. Some of the points he made about the Jedi council were good ones. Heck, if there was a movie about his history, we may have found out that he used to be a good guy, too.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
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maugwai:
I'll not disagree that a sympathetic villain, with a deep flaw that causes his fall, is both definitive and desirable.
If you read my previous post, you'll note that I didn't say that Anakin should never have been portrayed as a do-gooder Jedi.
Where I think Luca$' story falls off the tracks is in Ep II. If he'd had Amidala stick to her principles and reject Anakin's proffered love, the story could have taken a more believable turn.
Spurned by Amidala, his wrongful desire to possess her could have proven the key Palpatine needed to turn Anakin, in a believable fashion. Imperious could have dangled her as forbidden fruit, if only he would turn to the Dark Side. What person could not relate to having their heart's desire denied them, and then promised to them by a Mephistophelian agent? That's the essence of Faustian stories: Sell your soul and then win it back, because you were essentially a good person gone bad.
And that's the problem, isn't it? I feel Luca$ cheated, in order to make Anakin/Christensen more appealing (whether for marketing or to dumb it down for the masses, it matters not). It's like you can see the story it should have been in the tell-tale leftovers. Anakin strangles Amidala in Ep. III, but not for the reason that would have made sense, especially since the key to his fall was supposed to be saving her.
I think Anakin could still have been thus sympathetic. A young Jedi, struggling with forbidden love/desire... He professes his love to Amidala... She remains in character and rejects him on principles... He stews over this thorn in his side and it festers... He grows weary of selflessly rescuing the weak and needy, while his closeted heart's desire is denied him... Imperious offers him Amidala if he'll turn, and foresees her bearing him a son and heir to the Force... Anakin/Vader turns to the Dark Side, conquers Alderaan, kills her husband Bail Organa (whom she met in Congress) and takes Amidala as his prize... Vader takes her against her will ('rapes' her), she gets pregnant and subsequently escapes with the help of the surviving Jedi... She unexpectedly gives birth to twins and immediately dispatches the male child to Tattooine (having been told Imperious' vision by Vader), keeping the girl on the pretense that the child is her slain husband's daughter (Vader was surprised to find that Luke had a sister in RotJ, but not to find he had a son in TESB)... Vader retakes the Queen some years hence, and she meets her death at his hands... In a fit of rage at her continuing denial of him, he strangles her... He understandably feels bad about killing the only woman he has ever loved (although we can leave out the FrankenVader, "Nooooo!").
In such manner, Anakin/Vader is a human and believable character. His remorse at killing Amidala is remembered, when later he saves his son from Imperious.
But, as GWEK so aptly pointed out, that wasn't Luca$' story. What we got instead was snippets of good story (and what could have been excellent motivation and foreshadowing) pasted together in a most haphazard and unbelievable way.
As a final exercise in futility, I have to say that actors get way too much credit -- and way too much blame -- for the quality of storytelling. If Christensen (that is the correct spelling, BTW) is unbelievable while Hamill is effective, a large portion of that has to go to the logical premises of the tale. A great actor cannot make a bad story work. A great story can survive mediocre acting. Surely you don't need examples...
Respectfully,
zoid
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"Sure as I know anything, I know this: I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDM'
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Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
You know, I'm getting pretty sick of people having episodes I-III just because they're not IV-VI. ... The prequel trilogy's biggest crime is that most of us are viewing it as adults rather than children.
I just want to respond to this, because it's a response I've seen more than once when someone says that they didn't like Eps I-III. It was said to me in another thread when I tangentially brought up III. It's almost assumed that you must have seen Star Wars in the theater when you were 10 years old and been so blown away that it has colored everything that you saw afterwards.
I'm in my early 30's (nod to zoid
), and I didn't see Star Wars or Empire until I was in college. (I had seen Jedi when I was in high school.) I never saw any of them in the theater until the rereleases. So I essentially saw every movie in the trilogy as an adult (if you can call a college kid an adult ), and within roughly 10 years of each other. There were no childhood memories affecting my enjoyment (or lack thereof) of the new episodes.Some of us didn't like the new movies for pretty much all the reasons zoid discussed. Huge plot holes, wooden acting, horrible dialogue, bad direction, lack of chemistry between any of the characters or actors, use of CGI because "hey, it's cool" rather than to advance the story... in short, I didn't like them. I'm not saying that the originals were cinematic masterpieces of direction and acting, but at least they told an interesting story well. I rewatch Empire on a regular basis. I will never watch one of the new films again.
A lot of people liked these movies. More power to ya! I happen not to be one of them. Just keep in mind that not all of us who didn't like them did it from a knee-jerk reaction.
"One day, lad, all this will be yours ..."
"What - the curtains?"
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