wes and illyria

POSTED BY: est120
UPDATED: Friday, March 25, 2005 13:01
VIEWED: 6851
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EST120

Saturday, December 11, 2004 11:53 PM

does anyone want to expand a little on the relationship between wes and illyria? i do not mean romantic necessarily, but their interpersonal relationship. over the last half os season 5, wes is the only member of the crew that makes a real effort to connect with illyria. of course, spike gets beat up by her, but he is ordered to do that. anyway, wes, in his grief over losing fred, becomes the closest to illyria. in the finale, illyria says that she is concerned over wes' well being (after his confrontation with vail). also, when wes is tending to illyria's wounds, she questions why he does not go off and enjoy his last day. wes replies with the line "why don't i go off and have one last perfect day? smell the flowers or sky dive or have a go at it will mistress spanks-a-lot.." illyria seems slightly surprised by this statement and she further questions wes by asking "mistress who?".

my question is, does anyone feel that illyria has more of a grudging respect for wes as a human being that she does not have for any other type of being on the planet?

CORNCOBB

Sunday, December 12, 2004 12:06 AM

I think that Illyria's interaction with Wesley helped her to understand and appreciate the human condition. And she seemed to develope more than just respect for him; she became fond of him. She repeatedly made advances towards him whilst disguised as Fred and after his death she even said she was feeling grief for him

"Gorramit Mal... I've forgotten my line."

GROUNDED

Sunday, December 12, 2004 11:44 AM

"mistress spanks-a-lot.."

That line almost completely spoiled that scene. Why did they feel the need to crowbar some ridiculous 'humour' into every second scene? Argh...

Anyway, more to the point, I think they rushed Illyria's development. Whether or not that's anything to do with the cancellation, I have no idea, but she seemed to accept her fate pretty damn easily for an 'old one'. The 'understanding the human condition' thing is one of SF/F's ultimate cliches, and I think they could have been a little more original in the way it was handled.

Incidentally, I finally found my tape of the finale and rewatched it. I still maintain they botched Wes's death scene. Other than that though, I'm sticking to my original assessment that it blew the Buffy finale away :)

MACBAKER

Friday, December 24, 2004 8:30 AM

It's obvious that Illyria retains Fred's memories (otherwise, she wouldn't be able to mimic Fred so convincingly). I think Illyria's feeling for Wesley go beyond just respect. Fred cared for Wes, and because of those memories, I believe Illyria cares for him too. If she didn't care about him, why would she offer to let him spend his last moments with Fred. Her reaction to his death seems to support this.

I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.

AMYEL

Friday, December 24, 2004 8:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
I think they rushed Illyria's development. Whether or not that's anything to do with the cancellation

It had everything to do with the cancellation. At conventions, Amy Acker has spoken a lot about what the original ideas for Illyria were. Apparently, she and Joss talked for months before AHITW was written about how to portray Illyria. The cancellation was announced during the filming of Underneath, so everything after that was changed to gear towards the finale. Amy has mentioned that Illyria wasn't supposed to be Illyria-only for very long. I don't remember all the details from the different con reports, but Illyria was supposed to slip into Fred more often for various reasons. I think mostly it was how Illyria could deal with the world by accessing Fred's memories to get by, and how that makes Illyria change, sort of from the inside out. Instead, they fast-forwarded Illyria's gaining emotions and becoming attached to people.

If the show wasn't cancelled, Wesley wouldn't have died (Amy and Alexis are pretty sure about that one, but the writers haven't said a lot about it), so of course we'd see the Wes & Illyria relationship develop even more. Jeff Bell had hinted in some interview that Fred might still be around somewhere, even though Illyria claimed that her soul had been destroyed. I always wondered about that, especially since souls are so important to the `verse that I can't imagine that you can actually irradicate one. And Alexis had said that one idea the writers had was that Wes would be conflicted because he would become increasingly fond of Illyria, but he'd still be obsessed with trying find a way to get Fred back. So Wes would sort of put himself in a love triangle with the "shell" and the thing that took over the shell.

RABIT

Friday, December 24, 2004 1:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by amyel:
It had everything to do with the cancellation. At conventions, Amy Acker has spoken a lot about what the original ideas for Illyria were. Apparently, she and Joss talked for months before AHITW was written about how to portray Illyria. The cancellation was announced during the filming of Underneath, so everything after that was changed to gear towards the finale. Amy has mentioned that Illyria wasn't supposed to be Illyria-only for very long. I don't remember all the details from the different con reports, but Illyria was supposed to slip into Fred more often for various reasons. I think mostly it was how Illyria could deal with the world by accessing Fred's memories to get by, and how that makes Illyria change, sort of from the inside out. Instead, they fast-forwarded Illyria's gaining emotions and becoming attached to people.

If the show wasn't cancelled, Wesley wouldn't have died (Amy and Alexis are pretty sure about that one, but the writers haven't said a lot about it), so of course we'd see the Wes & Illyria relationship develop even more. Jeff Bell had hinted in some interview that Fred might still be around somewhere, even though Illyria claimed that her soul had been destroyed. I always wondered about that, especially since souls are so important to the `verse that I can't imagine that you can actually irradicate one. And Alexis had said that one idea the writers had was that Wes would be conflicted because he would become increasingly fond of Illyria, but he'd still be obsessed with trying find a way to get Fred back. So Wes would sort of put himself in a love triangle with the "shell" and the thing that took over the shell.

Thanks for the info! I'm glad to hear that - although it just makes me more frustrated by the cancellation...

Rabit

PSYCHICRIVER

Friday, December 31, 2004 11:57 PM

A plan I heard of for Season 6, is that Willow would show up and separate Fred from Illyria.

PsychicRiver

"Two by two, hands of blue."
"We can take care of each other. I'll knit!"

DIRTYBROWNCOAT

Friday, January 7, 2005 9:55 PM

I heard about that too - with Amy playing dual roles as Illyria and Fred. I don't know how I would've felt about that. I mean, it works for crazy evil twin episodes (see, Dopplegangland) but I don't know if it would work on a regular basis.

Anyway...I too was kind of pissed that Illyria just gave up. When A Hole in the World aired, I was like, "okay, THIS is our big bad for this season..." and then she sees her army is gone so she's just like "KAY! I GIVE!" I find that unrealistic. I figured she would've gone on a killing spree or something.

But like you guys said, the cancellation came about just around that time so they couldn't really do anything with it.

Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?
-Safe

GROUNDED

Monday, January 10, 2005 5:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DirtyBrowncoat:
"okay, THIS is our big bad for this season..."

I loathe the term 'big bad'. A single strong foe for a season's climax can be effective, but not when it's done every year. Fair enough Illyria did seem to cave a little quickly (and we all know the reason why...) but it was a far more original direction for her to take compared with a six ep rampage followed by final showdown.

HJERMSTED

Monday, January 10, 2005 10:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
I loathe the term 'big bad'. A single strong foe for a season's climax can be effective, but not when it's done every year. Fair enough Illyria did seem to cave a little quickly (and we all know the reason why...) but it was a far more original direction for her to take compared with a six ep rampage followed by final showdown.

Illyria would have been a great character to try and work into the mix at length giving her a season or two to grow. There were so many different directions they could have taken her. The worst thing about the cancellation, of course, was the loss of Wes. That still could have happened somewhere in a theoretical season 6, of course, but the cancellation sure did put plot devices into overdrive and often things felt like they were moving a bit too fast.

Hopefully the writers would have shunned the "Illyria as the Big Bad" impulse and used her character instead as a vehicle for learning more about ALL of the Angel characters. It might have been fun for Illyria to try to take over the planet/dimension a few more times (raising armies or henchmen, various plots) and fail each time until she eventually succumbs and becomes a trusted member of Angel, Inc.

If there are Angel/Buffyverse films on the horizon, I hope Joss and the writers (if he brings others in) will find room for Amy and Illyria.

Also... Electro-Gwen! We didn't see her once in season 5, did we? What a shame. I enjoy her character for more than the obvious reasons.

Now here's a question for the panel: With Wesley gone, who should be Illyria's new closest relation/foil in future projects?

mattro

PS: I'm glad new Angel comic books are on the horizon. Perhaps Joss will write them himself.

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