Real World Event Discussions

Dutch rethink Christianity for a doubtful world

POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 11, 2026 00:29
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NIKI2

Sunday, August 7, 2011 5:22 PM

Will wonders never cease!

Quote:
The Rev Klaas Hendrikse can offer his congregation little hope of life after death, and he's not the sort of man to sugar the pill.

An imposing figure in black robes and white clerical collar, Mr Hendrikse presides over the Sunday service at the Exodus Church in Gorinchem, central Holland.

It is part of the mainstream Protestant Church in the Netherlands (PKN), and the service is conventional enough, with hymns, readings from the Bible, and the Lord's Prayer. But the message from Mr Hendrikse's sermon seems bleak - "Make the most of life on earth, because it will probably be the only one you get".

"Personally I have no talent for believing in life after death," Mr Hendrikse says. "No, for me our life, our task, is before death."

Nor does Klaas Hendrikse believe that God exists at all as a supernatural thing.

"When it happens, it happens down to earth, between you and me, between people, that's where it can happen. God is not a being at all... it's a word for experience, or human experience."

Mr Hendrikse describes the Bible's account of Jesus's life as a mythological story about a man who may never have existed, even if it is a valuable source of wisdom about how to lead a good life.

His book Believing in a Non-Existent God led to calls from more traditionalist Christians for him to be removed. However, a special church meeting decided his views were too widely shared among church thinkers for him to be singled out.

A study by the Free University of Amsterdam found that one-in-six clergy in the PKN and six other smaller denominations was either agnostic or atheist.

"I think 'Son of God' is a kind of title," she says. "I don't think he was a god or a half god. I think he was a man, but he was a special man because he was very good in living from out of love, from out of the spirit of God he found inside himself. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14417362

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, August 7, 2011 6:01 PM

Hmm, well...

I gotta say that viewpoint sure beats trampling all that is good in this world under ones heels stampeding towards alleged pie in the sky offered by a known liar that feeds on human misery like a twisted theological vampire - I still remain of the firm belief that those pearly gates open to a firey pit and the howling laughter of a blind, mad, god.

That said, ANY diety that would condemn a person for benevolent actions *here*, regardless of the reason for that condemnation, is unworthy of worship or respect - the idea of damning an unbeliever who lived a noble and generous life sickens me, and reduces faith to naught more than extortion.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

AURAPTOR

Monday, August 8, 2011 2:16 AM

Hard for me to not think of 'The Dutch' from the US version of Being Human...

That's all I have on this matter.

As you were.

( and though the intent on my part wasn't so much to troll this thread, I concede that it may very well be received in such a manner. )

RIONAEIRE

Monday, August 8, 2011 3:35 AM

Rutting sellouts, find another job, dear.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NIKI2

Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM

Yeah, Frem, pretty much what you said. I just think it's neat that some clergy somewhere are waking up and realizing it might just be bigger than one "god", one "bible" and one set of rules by which to judge everyone. I think that's cool; may it spread and prosper. Dogma rarely doesn't anyone any good, and if the Church were to open itself to 21st century ideas, it's just possible it could do more good...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

THEHAPPYTRADER

Monday, August 8, 2011 4:28 PM

Hey I've got this great idea. I'm calling it dancing, and the events will be dances, only you stay in your chair and there is no music. You can still find a partner and socialize with others in a good natured fashion, but movement and music just aren't essential in dancing.

They've every right to practice what beliefs they wish, but IMO it seems silly to take the 'Christ' part out of Christianity.

As to all this 'condemnation' 'oppression' and the like, it is my understanding that none of us are worthy of forgiveness and eternal life. God, being a rather benevolent shiny type, sent his son to show us the way. We are saved by grace (not by deed) and thus have nothing to be 'proud' of. A true Christian follows our savior's example by forgiving and welcoming others. Jesus showed us that way, and whether or not it is he only way ain't my call nor anyone elses.

Bit of a rant here, feel free to skip it.

Select to view spoiler:

Many of these negative 'oppressor' type traits some of y'all appear to be attributing to Christianity in general, I have rarely seen nor heard of outside the frothy mouths of raging atheists. Sure there's a few Fred Phelps's out there in the world, but that can be applied to any group, religious or not. Even the Baptist are more often just guilty of having too many recipes for potato salad.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, August 8, 2011 11:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Hey I've got this great idea. I'm calling it dancing, and the events will be dances, only you stay in your chair and there is no music. You can still find a partner and socialize with others in a good natured fashion, but movement and music just aren't essential in dancing.

They've every right to practice what beliefs they wish, but IMO it seems silly to take the 'Christ' part out of Christianity.

As to all this 'condemnation' 'oppression' and the like, it is my understanding that none of us are worthy of forgiveness and eternal life. God, being a rather benevolent shiny type, sent his son to show us the way. We are saved by grace (not by deed) and thus have nothing to be 'proud' of. A true Christian follows our savior's example by forgiving and welcoming others. Jesus showed us that way, and whether or not it is he only way ain't my call nor anyone elses.

Bit of a rant here, feel free to skip it.

Select to view spoiler:
Many of these negative 'oppressor' type traits some of y'all appear to be attributing to Christianity in general, I have rarely seen nor heard of outside the frothy mouths of raging atheists. Sure there's a few Fred Phelps's out there in the world, but that can be applied to any group, religious or not. Even the Baptist are more often just guilty of having too many recipes for potato salad.

Actually I have another anology of the dance. You go to a dance and there is an insistence that you are only allowed to do one kind of dance, the dance prescribed by the community elders. You can only do this kind of dance and there is only one song that is allowed to be played. You decide you want to dance differently, but the elders rush at you and throw you from the hall. "That isn't dancing!!" They bellow as they turf you into the gutter. "You have to do it our way, or it just isn't dancing."

I like my analogy better when it comes to religion.

Early Christians believed a whole host of things that we'd find peculiar today, or wouldn't look anything like Christianity. There is nothing pure about the beliefs of Christians, they merge and meld a whole host of philosophies and teachings from other belief systems, including other religions. In the early days, there were many, many sects that believed different things. People bickered over the divinity of Jesus, the relationship of Jesus to God, the virginity of Mary.

The first Council of Nicaea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaeaand subsequent Eumenical Councils tossed around these ideas and produced, over centuries the canon that we know as Christianity today, including what is included in the Bible, the so called divinely produced piece of writing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_Christian_Biblical_can
on.

What many people think of as a stand alone work has been tinkered and altered, with books and gospels deleted. And what was included do you think? You may believe the divine hand of a supernatural being guided what went into its current form. Me, I think people played politics in a way that makes the current US debate look like a good natured disagreement. And who won? Who wins these things usually. Not the smartest, or best, or most convincing but those had and used power and shouted the loudest.

Something to think about, eh?

RIONAEIRE

Monday, August 8, 2011 11:35 PM

If he doesn't want to stick with teaching Christianity then he can get a job at teaching or doing something else, I think that would be the right course of action for him. He could be in charge at a UU church for instance.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

THEHAPPYTRADER

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 12:44 AM

That is a good analogy for religion Megons, bit my tongue and cheek analogy was meant only to apply to Christianity. The common theme amongst all sects of Christianity is the divinity of Jesus Christ and the belief that his sacrifice grants us forgiveness and salvation, though we do not deserve it. Taking that out is like taking music out of dancing. It can still be a positive exercise or philosophy, but IMO just isn't the same thing. I don't understand it, but they've every right to do it.

1KIKI

Tuesday, August 9, 2011 1:20 AM

Interesting that people need to believe the story of the NT in order to accept the lessons.

It reminds me of a distinction I came across, which is the difference in following a religion ABOUT Jesus (his divinity, his power, etc) v the religion OF Jesus - love your god above all and your neighbor as yourself.

As for this: Many of these negative 'oppressor' type traits some of y'all appear to be attributing to Christianity in general, I have rarely seen nor heard of outside the frothy mouths of raging atheists. Sure there's a few Fred Phelps's out there in the world ...: what is this referring to specifically?