PTSD and Mal. Really?
POSTED BY: Bytemite
UPDATED: Monday, January 27, 2020 20:08
VIEWED: 36442
PAGE 9 of 12
It's not so much that I think she's trying to compromise at this point, but that she's trying to simplify her argument, asking Wash to consent just for now to the idea of children, then LATER work out the details with him.
I really don't have a whole lot there to support that interpretation, but it's always how I've percieved it.
Also, I'm kind of in between you guys. I think her possibly selfish clinging to a military life and her stoic manner of expression is her upbringing. I also see plenty of times that she confronts Mal if she thinks he's wrong, so I don't think their relationship is defined by their military roles. But I DO think her reaction to danger IS possibly an indication of emotional damage from the war.
I've met plenty of soldier kids, and they all act just like Zoe, WITHOUT having ever been in a war. In fact, a lot of them are annoyed by how strict their parents are, and it baffles me how much they want to follow in their parents footsteps, go off, shoot guns, join the army... But it's all upbringing. I wasn't raised that way, so I'm like Wash. I can only observe it, not really understand it.
But the way she reacts to danger... Looking at what I've read here about PTSD, in a subtle way, it fits. It fits a lot.
Look at the dynamic between Mal and Zoe in the Train Job, when it's the two of them and there's a regiment of fine Alliance soldiers on board with them.
What's Mal's response? Reckless. Impulsive. "Let's do it anyway."
What's Zoe's response? "I think your brain's missing," but what does she DO? She goes along with it, despite her very reasonable worries. She recognizes the danger, but goes right into it, instead of asking, "well, wait a minute. How else could we do this?"
THAT I could go ahead and call PTSD "damage."
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Quote:Yeah, we're probably at an agree-to-disagree point... but what fun is that? LOL!
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
It's not just the baby situation that has me taking this view of Zoe, although it is the culmination. But, I guess, if you don't see it, I'm not going to try and convince you.
(And you did go on to try and to convince me, btw.
)Quote:...is your view. I don't see her life on Serenity as a constant reenactment of the war. That's the point I'm trying to make: I think she likes being there for reasons that aren't based in trauma.
It's not an attachment to a job, or profession, though, it's an attachment to a specific situation, a daily reenactment of a deeply stressful time with the person with whom she shared that time.
Quote:And yet, we never saw them.
Regularly, normal people, really? I think there is probably a far wider spectrum of environments on even the Rim, than we have seen in those 14 episodes.
Peaceful, settled places would need stuff. You know, food and supplies and services. This would be a source of those profitable and legal jobs that Serenity can't find, which suggests to me that these places aren't out there. At least, not in great numbers.
Quote:But I don't see Zoe as purely all this. She has these traits - who isn't flawed? - but since I see her verse differently than you, and therefore her situation with Wash and Mal differently, I see these traits as much being less severe.
You could assume she has always been selfish and short-sighted, that she has always been wired to cling to another person's life choices to replicate a military structure instead of entertaining the thought of change, that she has always been a sucky communicator and was emotionally closed-off...
Quote:I'm not arguing that she is static.
Damaged Zoe is a person I find infinitely more interesting than static Zoe.
Quote:But she never said the latter. What we saw was one short little bit of an ongoing argument, and we don't know what came before.
Plus, Zoe doesn't use that very effective argument with Wash. "We're as safe here as we would be anywhere else, maybe more so", would much more convincing than "I don't care"
Quote:Perhaps because, in their prior arguments, he brought up several excuses before this one? Maybe she thinks he has other reasons for not wanting to have a child? Or maybe she feels he wants to get her away from Mal for reasons other than child-bearing safety, so there's a whole nother level to this argument that hasn't surfaced yet?
But she calls it an excuse! How is that not belittling his opinion?
We don't know. The information is limited, and there are many ways to interpret it.
Quote:Certainly both situations happen. But I don't think this situation is either extreme, and I don't think only Zoe or only Wash is at fault. I think they both have valid arguments, and it's wrong to completely vilify one of them based on such incomplete information. (ETA: I know, vilify isn't the right word. But you know what I mean, right?)
But how many people use exactly that reasoning to put off responsible changes, because they want something and they want it now?
Quote:I think I'm looking at what's been presented in the series and movie and keeping my interpretation within that `verse. Of course, in a realistic multi-planetary society there would be some version of comfy suburb all over the Rim as well as the Core. But we've never seen it. All we've seen is a lot of Rim people living very very hard lives and Core people living overly structured and controlled lives. That's just the fictional Firefly verse as we've seen it thus far.
I think you are ignoring middle options in favor of extremes. Just doesn't seem very realistic...
..or as far as that can apply to a tv universe.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:Quote:Yeah, we're probably at an agree-to-disagree point... but what fun is that? LOL!
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
It's not just the baby situation that has me taking this view of Zoe, although it is the culmination. But, I guess, if you don't see it, I'm not going to try and convince you.
(And you did go on to try and to convince me, btw.
Gah, you're right, I did!
Break the cycle, Rouka! It truly is time to agree to disagree. But thank you so much for the discussion!
Plus, since lack of argument now leaves me some space in this post: HOW'S THE WRITING GOING?
<-- that is my greedy face
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The arbitrators of this debate suggest we take a 30 minute break for drinks and cookies. :)
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I like the arbitrators of this debate. They have good ideas.
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Quote:I agree. Probably because I assume Zoe's a reasonable person who's aware of the issues involved in raising kids. It is totally an assumption - I could be wrong!
Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's not so much that I think she's trying to compromise at this point, but that she's trying to simplify her argument, asking Wash to consent just for now to the idea of children, then LATER work out the details with him.
I really don't have a whole lot there to support that interpretation, but it's always how I've percieved it.
Funny how one's understanding of a character can completely change the interpretation of a scene, huh?
Quote:I can sort of see that. But I don't see the Train job exchange as Zoe having serious doubts as to whether they should go ahead with it. I do think it's her role in the partnership to bring up practical challenges that Mal overlooks, but I think if she'd had serious reservations she'd have been more forceful. Besides, she looked quite relaxed, even flippant, as they went ahead with it. I didn't see any PTSD kind of freeze-up or anxiety.
But I DO think her reaction to danger IS possibly an indication of emotional damage from the war.
ETA: Damn! And here's me still in max debate mode! Do I really have to take a time out?
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Ha, I've never seen anyone able to give up a debate right when it gets good, not if they care about the topic.
No, you're right, it's not so much that Zoe has a freeze-up, or crippling anxiety. It's more that she's almost able to ignore or dismiss anxiety over concerns that she might otherwise give more consideration, and go into dangerous situations anyway.
From my civilian perspective, that doesn't seem like a normal response someone would have to their own concerns. Maybe that's part of her personality, but that could ALSO be a conditioned response to danger and war time situations, I think.
Oh, AR, I just thought of something on your side of the argument. Wash says in Those Left Behind that he could take a job on any ship he wanted, and the only reason he's staying on Serenity is Zoe.
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Quote:
Whose opinion? I haven't seen that said on this thread. Did I miss it?
The opinion was posted by Bytemite
Quote:
Rallem: The way I see it, if people are going to rule out recreational drugs, they'll have to rule out medicinal drugs and alcohol. Lots of pharmaceuticals have much worse side effects and are more addictive than recreational drugs. I don't really take any kind of drug, but if something can help someone, I don't really understand drawing arbitrary lines on what is and what is not recreational/legal. But maybe I should read that article first. :)
I wanted to say more but cannot find the post I am responding to anymore. I will try again on my other computer in a bit.
http://www.swyzzlestyx.com/index.html
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Quote:OK - this I see. But (I just can't stop saying that LOL!) isn't that just part of a good soldier? Oh, you brought that up too. Good!
Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's more that she's almost able to ignore or dismiss anxiety over concerns that she might otherwise give more consideration, and go into dangerous situations anyway.
Hmm, yeah she could use a little less soldier-ness. Her future in the series surely would have gone that way, toward finding her own voice separate from Mal. Would have been interesting!
Quote:Good point.... I often forget the comics, since I have only read through them once or twice.
Oh, AR, I just thought of something on your side of the argument. Wash says in Those Left Behind that he could take a job on any ship he wanted, and the only reason he's staying on Serenity is Zoe.
AR - working on the writing. Slowly! Just blogged a bit about it, in fact...
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Ha, I've never seen anyone able to give up a debate right when it gets good, not if they care about the topic.
I know myself. It's better to quit now before I start frothing at the mouth.
Quote:
Oh, AR, I just thought of something on your side of the argument. Wash says in Those Left Behind that he could take a job on any ship he wanted, and the only reason he's staying on Serenity is Zoe.
Why thank you. So yeah, there's that for employment options. :)
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