River-Sue, Kaylee-Sue, Inara-Sue... A spin-off thread to the Mary-Sue one.

POSTED BY: AgentRouka
UPDATED: Sunday, May 20, 2007 17:00
VIEWED: 8248
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AGENTROUKA

Monday, February 26, 2007 7:56 AM

As, I think, we've all painfully experienced, it's not just Original Characters (OC's) that can be too perfect, too tragic, too lovable, too rescue-able to be true.

And in particular Kaylee and River lend themselves to being a focus of self-insertion, carrying certain Mary-Sue traits already on the show: each being "gifted" in a way that had nothing to do with study and hard work, being lovely, being very young in an environment not usually suitable for someone that young, being universally beloved and protected, rarely if ever portrayed as being wrong about something, etc.

Kaylee and more rarely Inara tend to attract the rescue-fantasies, while River tends to become the focus of power fantasies.

At which point do you feel a character has ceased being in-character, and become an outlet for another person's self-insertion? Do you notice this with characters other than Kaylee and River? For example Zoe-Sue is something I have never seen.

Do character-Sues bother you as much as Mary-Sues? More, less? How sensitive are you to this phenomenon, that is, how soon do you feel that something is a Sue?

Thoughts?

LEIASKY

Monday, February 26, 2007 7:14 PM

I don't think these bother me as much as blatant Mary-Sue's. Only because I can, and do, often just chalk it up to another's interpretation of how the character would/should act. I tend to be a stickler for characterization, and its only gotten worse the more I've written in this fandom, so if a character is behaving like I don't think they would, I just stop reading and don't go on.

I do think that Kaylee, Inara, River-Sue's tend to really come into play more when an author is writing a pairing with them, rather than in a story that isn't heavily pairing concentrated.

But then, I could say that about Jayne, Mal and Simon as well. Authors can take them really far out of believable character to put them with another female character, either established or OC and turn them into '- Sue's' as well.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

NBZ

Monday, February 26, 2007 9:07 PM

heh, this is something which probably cannot be avoided, but as long as it is within reason it can be ignored.

The only character that does not seem to suffer from this is Zoe. Probably because there are very few fics from her POV. It is difficult to get into her mindframe.

But I may aswell just rant. Much more interesting

There is the brave, heroic and noble captain who is stoic in the face of danger, but is utterly fearful for his crew.

Then there is the lovable Wash. Who would want to hurt him?

Kaylee is the bestest mechanic ever. She can teach those who built the things a few. Universally loved, but put her within ten planets of Simon and she will be the most hypersensitive person ever.

Then there is River. She is gifted/cursed depending on the situation, but it will always be in an endearing manner.

Yes you're probably thinking what is wrong with the above characterisation of Mal and Wash? apart from selling the short (and to a point be a mischaracterisation), some fics go around with every member of the crew thinking the same thing.

I can get the writer likes the character, but it can get a bit much when you are reading the sixth account of how lovable Wash is, and how he shiould not eb hurt the way the writer has written the hurt upon him.

According to alliance records, Mal is around 49 at the time of the BDM. 37 before the war started, but this is something I can ignore. I do not mind reading alternative versions where he was younger and I only found this out very recently.

Zoe is 16 years his junior, so her and Mal cannot have had a childhood together (another which I can ignore, as well, because). Mal is born 2468, Zoe in 2484. Book is only about 7-9 years older than Mal! Zoe is loyal, but not blind.

Mal is not 'heroic' and 'noble'. He just feels bad enough at times to do something good. And is fiercely protective over people he terms as 'his'.

Jayne just gets mischaracterised. He actually does like violence. He may not be book smart, but is a survivor. He is street smart. He will not turn fluffy. Ever. I can see how people want to imagine them changing him (soem romantic notions eh?), but it will not happen. He may get more sensitive. He may start to give more of a damn, but he will not get fluffy. (He is a slightly more dense version of Mal, but with alot less loyalty. or so he likes to think.)

River and Simon are probably Buddhist. Their parents are buddhist, so making them christian does not work too well.

With Inara it is once again mischaracterisation instead of Inara-sue. Since when will Mal roll over to her suggestion?

You shall not undermine his authority even if he is being pigheaded.

And to show the gravity of events, Mal, Jayne and Zoe will not get paralysed by fear.

/End Rant

I can now breathe...

Anyone agree? Disagree?

Anyone sharpening an axe I should be worried about?

AGENTROUKA

Monday, February 26, 2007 9:15 PM

Not much time to reply now. Just one thing...

I'm 100% sure that the 2468 number as Mal's birth year is a typo that is *supposed* to be 2486. It simply makes no sense for Mal to be 49, but 31 or 32 does work and jives much better with his psychological development during the history given to us on the show.

Just about 19 when the war started, 25 when it ended, 32 now. Young enough to make his "mean old man" act a sad irony, old enough to have earned his "professional" standing among the creme de la criminal community.

NBZ

Monday, February 26, 2007 9:30 PM

I considered that, but then it was mentioned one of the writers had a DOB of 20/09/1968, so I think it is less of an error that Mal was giver 20/09/2468.

It could be that the mighty alliance had a computer glitch, or a fake DOB, or as you mentioned just a typo.

2486 is closer to what I would have expected, and 2468 did give me a little shock, but it still fits.

Whedon did say that the average lefe expectancy in the 'verse is higher aswell. Closer to 120, so I do not think it was an accident. It just makes us question alot of 'certainties' we had in our minds.

Back on topic, one way to avoid this Sueness is somethign which Joss mentioned in one of his commentaries.

He described mal and then he said that this was someone whose thought process Joss would not agree with.

In otehr words, when oput in a situation, think what such a character would do instead of what you want them to do.

This is why I do not write. I have tried, but after writing a scene, I realise this is not how it would work. He/She/They would do tsomething different. Something I do not want them to do as the new actin does not fit and changes everything. so I am back to square one, not writing.

Gotta say those who do are brave and talented, as getting the characters right is hard. Much easier to pick something apart.

AGENTROUKA

Monday, February 26, 2007 9:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
I considered that, but then it was mentioned one of the writers had a DOB of 20/09/1968, so I think it is less of an error that Mal was giver 20/09/2468.

It could be that the mighty alliance had a computer glitch, or a fake DOB, or as you mentioned just a typo.

2486 is closer to what I would have expected, and 2468 did give me a little shock, but it still fits.

Whedon did say that the average lefe expectancy in the 'verse is higher aswell. Closer to 120, so I do not think it was an accident. It just makes us question alot of 'certainties' we had in our minds.

Actually, it's on the Core that life expectancy is up to 120, but I imagine on the Rim and Border planets it's a lot closer to what we have now, if not even less in places. Just like third world countries have a lower life expectancy than rich, well-regulated ones with widely available medical care.

Plus, living longer does not necessarily mean that we stay young longer, as well. We have a whole lot more "old age" (80, 90, 100) these days than we used to have, and gained much less youth in comparison. Mal just doesn't look even remotely 50.

Mal being 49.. it just utterly doesn't work in my head. This would mean he was 38 when the war started, and must have had an actual life back home, aside from being young and working on his Ma's ranch. A family of his own, for one. It just seems really unlikely that he would have been the careless, nearly cheerful and physically super-fit soldier we saw in the flashbacks if he'd been 40 during the war and lost a family of his own. He's not played that way on the show.

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Monday, February 26, 2007 9:50 PM

I don't think it's always a Mary-Sue thing entirely. Sometimes it's just writers carrying over their own "politics" into the characters. If there's something you like about Kaylee or River, especially something you wish you could be, then you tend to inflate that side of them, and sometimes things get distorted.

Of course sometimes you get people rewriting "their" character so that they're almost unrecognisable. I saw this a lot in Buffy fanfic, especially regarding Spike. For non-Buffy fans, in season six Buffy and Spike were in a relationship and Buffy didn't treat Spike especially well. Because of this you got a lot of fans who were desperately in love with Spike and hated Buffy for being so mean to him. It made for some pretty weird fic.

The worst example that springs to mind was an AU (Alternative Universe) fic that had Buffy married to Riley. He was abusive and beat her regularly until Spike showed up to rescue her.

No, I'm not kidding. Someone actually wrote a fic with battered-wife-Buffy being rescued by saintly Spike from evil Riley. And it *wasn't* a joke. It's one of the few fics I literally couldn't finish.

Obviously that example is pretty extreme, but you do get a lot of issues with characters acting out of character when people have their own axe to grind. If people are desperate to see Kaylee and Jayne together for example, sometimes they make Simon far too whiney and selfish. I mean, come on! The guy gave up everything for his sister! I have a *very* hard time believing he'd be ashamed of Kaylee's lack of genteel manners if they visited his family.

Banners, avatars and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

NBZ

Monday, February 26, 2007 9:55 PM

Maybe he had a deathwish? Maybe he was cheerful because he did not expect to survive?

I for one would find ti unnerving fighting alongside someone who was so cheery as he is shown in the flashbacks.

I am not expecting people to buy he is 49. It is pretty difficult, but it does ask dificult questions.

First two lines of the Ballad of Serenity are "Take my love, Take my land", so it is not entirely impossible that he had a family of his own. Just improbable.

It could all have just been a mid life crisis.

Shadow, while a farm world, I expect it to have been relatively prosperous. It, Persephone and Hera were the backbone of the independents, so it must have had something to keep a war going for around 5 years.

Question is when was Shadow destroyed? If it was early on, then it is entirely plausable. If it was at the end, then less so.

AGENTROUKA

Monday, February 26, 2007 10:06 PM

Of course, nothing is impossible.

I just maintain that it's unlikely to the point of absurdity that Mal is actually that old.

Mainly, because the ultimate loss of the war and the way it wiped away all his sacrifices, that's the thing that really broke Mal's spirit. If he had truly, fundamentally lost something he had built for himself to the war, if he had a death wish rather than actual optimism, then the thing about losing his faith wouldn't have been played in this way. He would have gone dark before that.

We know what Mal is like when he's lost. After the Valley, after Book's death... he's closed-off, harsh and viciously efficient. Nothing like Mal's flashbacks.

Unless he had decided that this kind of loss would have been worth the sacrifice in order to win and, again, that's not how we see him deal with loss in the show and movie. Or whatever he had build for himself before wouldn't have meant much to him, which is also unlikely because Mal forms very deep attachments.

Psychologically, it doesn't make much sense. Physically, neither. Plus, it makes Mal/Inara and Mal/Nandi and Mal/Saffron and all those other pairings really, really, really icky because he could be their father and would likely feel that way rather than the equal-to-equal attraction he does feel.

ETA: Sorry for being overly insistent. It's just something I feel very strongly about because the alternative seems so very very very wrong to me.

NBZ

Monday, February 26, 2007 10:28 PM

That is ok. Only reason I brought it up was because well noone goes down that road.

I like the road less travelled. (Heard the one where Book is a Companion? It isa pretty disturbing notion, but I like it. Just noone has picked it up for fan fiction. I tried but failed in writing anything.)

Inara the character I would put at mid 30's (you should read my conspiracy on her!), not the same age as morena.

Nandi as older (not got any conspiracies aboput her). Saffron as younger (or her), but then again he did have issues with Saffron until she drugged him.

We don't actually know what he was like after the valley. Apart from the slight suggestion of permanent incarceration and torture we know nothing.

I would expect what happened later to be a big thing in the shaping of the characters. he would have to learn his humanity again after release. (This is conjecture based on Rivers' words in Safe "they forgot how to be..." combined with "Take me out to the black. Tell them I'm not coming back" and soem place where it mentions they were gonna be tried for war crimes.)

After Book, yes we know, but then again that is immediate after effects. What about after Wash? At the end of the BDM he is pretty happy.

This is why it would have been brilliant if the series had continued for even one episode. I would like to see how the death of Tracey would have hit him and Zoe.

I would suspect a much harder hit on Zoe than on Mal if we take the hints from the episode. Mal let's Zoe take the lead in The Message right until they almost get blown up, as if it is more important to her.

I like the idea of him being old because no one else does. It also questions what I have concieved before I found out. It makes me challenge my own assumptions.

Even if he is old, he would not have had kids. he calls Kaylee Meimei, not some mandarin for daughter.

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